Ep 233: The Art of Being Principal Series - Why Referral-Only Is Holding Your Business Back with Katie Decker-Erickson
Many interior designers wear "referral-only" like a badge of honor—but what happens when the referrals stop?
In this episode of The Art of Being Principal Series, Michelle Lynne and Katie Decker-Erickson unpack one of the biggest misconceptions in the design industry: that referrals alone are enough to build a sustainable business.
The truth? Referrals are wonderful—but they're not a strategy.
If you want consistent revenue, predictable growth, healthy profit, and the ability to actually step into the role of Principal Designer, your business needs a marketing engine that works even when you're busy serving clients.
Michelle and Katie share candid stories from their own firms, discuss why consistency always beats bursts of activity, and explain how sales, marketing, operations, and financial systems all work together to create a business that supports the life you actually want.
Whether you're trying to grow your firm, build a stronger pipeline, or simply stop wondering where your next project will come from, this episode will help you think differently about marketing—and your role as the leader of your business.
In this episode, we discuss:
Why "referral-only" isn't a long-term growth strategy
The real reason marketing should never be the first thing you cut
Building a consistent pipeline instead of riding the referral roller coaster
How blogs, email marketing, Pinterest, SEO, and social media work together
Why repurposing content is smarter than constantly creating new content
The importance of owning your audience through email marketing
Creating systems that support sales instead of relying on memory
How strong operations and financial planning support sustainable growth
Defining success on your own terms—not someone else's Instagram feed
Why the ultimate luxury isn't more money—it's having the freedom to design your life
Memorable Quote
"Luxury is having the time to think, read, wander, and romanticize your life."
Resources Mentioned
Sidemark CRM & Marketing Platform
Claude AI
ChatGPT
The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans by Marian Ryan
Join Us in Dallas
If this conversation resonates with you, we'd love to see you at Be In The Room: The Art of Being Principal, a one-day immersive experience for established interior design firm owners.
Together, we'll dive deeper into the three pillars every successful firm needs:
Sales & Marketing
Operations
Financials
This isn't another conference filled with theory. It's an intimate day of practical strategy, honest conversations, and real business building alongside other established firm owners.
Learn more HERE.
MICHELLE LYNNE (01:02)
Hey y'all, before we jump into today's episode, I want to tell you about an event that Katie Decker -Erickson and I are doing this August in Dallas. It's called The Art of Being the Principal, Be In the Room, and it's a one-day immersive for established interior design firm owners. Over the years, I've noticed something, and that is that most designers don't have a design problem, they have a business problem. The work is beautiful, clients are coming in, projects are moving forward.
But behind the scenes, they're just carrying too much. Every decision runs through them. Every question lands on their desk. Revenue is growing, but profit isn't always keeping pace. This is not a conference about trends, social media, how to get more followers, how to price. It is actually a room where we are going to talk about the real business behind the beautiful work: sales and marketing, operations, profitability.
And what it actually takes to build a firm that doesn't depend on you for everything. We're limiting the room, and this is for established design firm only. This is for established design firm owners only because we want real conversations, not a ballroom full of people taking notes and heading home unchanged. So if you've ever looked around your business and thought, there has to be a better way to do this, I'd love for you to join us. You can learn more and reserve your seat at my sidemark.com.
dot com forward slash room. Now, let's get into today's episode.
MICHELLE LYNNE (02:28)
Hey, hey, hey everybody, welcome back. This is the Design for the Creative Mind podcast, and I'm your host, Michelle Lynn.
Katie Decker-Erickson (02:34)
And I'm Katie Erickson. Don't worry, if you normally log into Success by Design, you're in the right place because we're doing a two-for-one special talking about all the things today.
MICHELLE LYNNE (02:43)
Dual podcast. So yes, and actually, so today's topic ⁓ that we just kind of pulled out of our ears recently. so we're winging it today, but that's so much fun because this is stuff that Katie and I both love talking about. And the topic is
Katie Decker-Erickson (02:58)
Sales and marketing and marketing that if you're doing it depending on hope and referrals, why that's not the answer. And I mean, we can say we're winging it, but the reality is like this is like a combined almost half a century of experience of sales and marketing and how we I mean, let's be honest for this.
MICHELLE LYNNE (03:01)
There we go.
So let's just say it's
it's unscripted. There we go. Unscripted. now, Katie, I want to jump into this real fast because you just mentioned something about if you're relying on referrals. And I gotta tell you, like, I used to be envious of the designers that just
Katie Decker-Erickson (03:18)
There we go. There you go. Yeah. 'Cause yeah, for sure. ⁓ we've learned. ⁓
MICHELLE LYNNE (03:36)
said, yeah, I don't really do anything. I just get referrals, right? I thought I was doing something wrong. And I've had designers come to me because they're like, shit, I don't have any projects. And I'm like, well, it's because you didn't do your sales marketing. So I learned that envy was not necessarily warranted.
Katie Decker-Erickson (03:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think there's like this badge of honor in the industry that like, I'm by referral only. And I'm like, well, that's a really crummy pipeline you're building, right? Like, because when referrals are in, they're in. And when they're out, they're out. And unlike a tide, even, they're not consistent. And so, yeah, it's great to have referrals, but that is not a sales and marketing destination. That's just an add-on. But I think that like
To your point and your story, like, yeah, you're envious of that. Like, I don't I'm not quite sure where that comes from. Like, I'm so well thought of on buy referral only. And I'm like, Yeah, but you can't build a PL and you can't do like market projections and decide how much like debt load you're willing to take on or what you're gonna invest in in your business when you're referral only. And so it's kind of what we talk about.
MICHELLE LYNNE (04:44)
Hell, I can't sleep
at night if I don't know what my pipeline is.
Katie Decker-Erickson (04:47)
Right? Right? Yeah, I think that's the real. Like well, and how has that changed for you over the years? Because like eventually did you there's this thing a psychologists call uncomfortably uncomfortable. We can live uncomfortable for a really long time, but then we get this threshold called uncomfortably uncomfortable, and that's when change happens. Like we no longer can handle just being uncomfortable. Like now we're uncomfortably uncomfortable, so we're gonna precipitate the change.
MICHELLE LYNNE (04:48)
That's one of the things that keeps me awake.
Katie Decker-Erickson (05:12)
Like when did that happen for you when it came to referrals in your pack?
MICHELLE LYNNE (05:16)
Well, when I wanted to pay my team. Like if I wanna if I wanna make payroll, then my little booty needs to be out there marketing and keeping that pipeline full because if it's just me that's not gonna eat, that's one thing. Hell, I can afford to miss a meal on occasion, right? That's a whole other podcast. But if I'm not gonna be able to pay my team, that really sat hard with me.
Katie Decker-Erickson (05:17)
Yeah,
Okay.
Yeah.
It's interesting you should say that because my husband said to me the other day, he's like, it was actually this weekend. He goes, You just have complete autonomy. And I lit up like a Christmas tree. I was like, that's hilarious and so cute. Yeah, no, so actually I don't at all have any autonomy. I have clients depending on me. I have people who aren't gonna go buy groceries without me, multiple people who are not gonna buy groceries without me. So
MICHELLE LYNNE (05:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie Decker-Erickson (06:03)
Like we should have that conversation of like, one, I'm not autonomous. Now, do I have an immense amount of creative freedom? Yes. I mean, I get what he's saying. But also, there's a huge amount of responsibility that comes with it, especially if you're looking to grow to the next level in your business. you just can't do it off of that referral. Let's talk about I'm curious. Yeah, go
MICHELLE LYNNE (06:22)
Well that and next level is
I think next level is designed differently for all of us. But I think that if you just want to have a sustainable business and not a hobby, or as you call it, a jobby.
Katie Decker-Erickson (06:30)
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
A jobby feels
like it's a job, but when we look at payroll and we start looking at our P L, it's starting to feel more like a hobby because we didn't really take home anything last year or we did as nominal. Yeah. Yeah. I think well, yeah, and I love what I love that point that like it's different for everybody, what it looks like. But like the sustainable word to me is really, really important, especially as I get into middle age, comfortably, uncomfortably seated.
MICHELLE LYNNE (06:47)
More loss than profit.
Katie Decker-Erickson (07:04)
But what sometimes looks so sexy and exciting as you grow in your business and you want to grow your business, you wanna push, push, push. Sometimes it's just like we just have to write the ship and study what we've got and build a model that allows it to feel good, not just next week, but like next month, next year, like what gets us to a retirement age. that becomes a whole different conversation.
MICHELLE LYNNE (07:27)
Well let's talk about like what is your sales and marketing look like?
Katie Decker-Erickson (07:29)
your sales and marketing work.
What is what? it's a great question. We have a it's it's a machine. I'm not gonna lie. Anyone who says sales and marketing is highly creative, I'm like
MICHELLE LYNNE (07:32)
What does your sales and marketing look like? Like what is your process?
Katie Decker-Erickson (07:45)
Maybe, but like really I think it's just like Feed the Beast because it is an immense amount of blogs, website updates, platform updates, gosh, a great email marketing campaign.
MICHELLE LYNNE (07:54)
Should be writing your blog.
How often are you writing your blog?
Katie Decker-Erickson (07:58)
Once a week. We do. Uh-huh. Or if it's a five week month, then we do five. But yeah, I think it's important. And it's not always I think this is a key point. It's not always that we're saying something brand new and exciting. It's repackaging a lot of what we have said and have said historically because different things hit with different people. But when we get into s say it again. Yeah. It's where
MICHELLE LYNNE (08:00)
Well, are you doing so you're doing four a month?
dependent.
At different times. Like I I
know that I'll hear something, you know, on a Thursday and then I don't hear it again for another year or two and that's when it actually like permeates my my brain.
Katie Decker-Erickson (08:35)
Yeah. Yeah. I totally feel that. It's where you're at because you're on the receiver end, right? Like are you picking up what I'm putting down? I don't know. Maybe you're having a bad day and you need it on that Thursday instead of say on a Tuesday. But I think sometimes we think, my gosh, I gotta come up with the most creative content or I've got to come up with the most like riveting reel. Or I've got to come up with I don't know, I think it's easy now, you do really, really, really good social medium as well.
MICHELLE LYNNE (08:40)
Mm-hmm.
Uh-huh.
Exactly.
Thank you.
Katie Decker-Erickson (09:01)
Like,
where do you what's your process like?
MICHELLE LYNNE (09:04)
So Hallie and I work together for both ML Interiors Group as well as the Bake House, which is kind of rebranding little by little. But let's just talk about ML Interiors Group because that's where our audience is. we write the blog. So we're writing one a month, and then we're writing a second one just for SEO. But the first one we're writing, we're taking that and we're breaking it down into social media, Pinterest,
Katie Decker-Erickson (09:18)
Mm.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (09:30)
What else are we doing? And then it goes into our newsletter. And then we also have standard nurture evergreen type of email marketing. So
Katie Decker-Erickson (09:39)
Yeah. And your newsletter
and your blog, I mean mine are the same thing.
MICHELLE LYNNE (09:43)
So we send out a newsletter from the studio once a month and it will it will ⁓ it will point back to the blog. So I have enough email going out on the regular that I'm not and it's not something that I'm opposed to, it's just something that I'm not doing right now. I teach you can take your blog and send that as a newsletter in addition to your newsletter, which I believe I do that for the bakehouse side, my coaching side.
Katie Decker-Erickson (09:46)
Yeah. Okay.
Hmm. Gotcha.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (10:10)
But ⁓ yeah, and Pinterest, girl, Pinterest has been really impactful in regards to getting ⁓ people on on the phone. Like they'll click through that pin and contact us. Because well, you know, Pinterest is a search engine, not a social media.
Katie Decker-Erickson (10:11)
Yeah. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
That's interesting.
That's a key point right there.
MICHELLE LYNNE (10:30)
It's yeah.
So just by taking your blog content and creating three or four pins just from that blog creates content. And we're just looking to s solve problems. That's what marketing is. Did you know I was a marketing major back in like nineteen two? Yeah.
Katie Decker-Erickson (10:46)
I love that.
I love that because well it's so true. You are looking to solve problems. I always say it's about knowing the needs and the wants of your end user and you just scaffold out of that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (10:55)
Mm-hmm.
That's that's that's the definition of marketing. It's like finding out what the client's problem is and learning how to solve it. Mm-hmm.
Katie Decker-Erickson (11:04)
Right? And it doesn't
require, I think like the the greatest point you just made. It's not about recreating all the content all the time. It's repurposing the content you've already created. you do something really well. You do it consistently. I think as designers, let's go back to where we started, referral, right? So we're referral-based. We're really, really proud of that, even though we shouldn't be. We had a lull, we're like, gosh, I should probably do some marketing. So we have a knee-jerk reaction.
And all of a sudden there's three posts that we Woo, we got three posts. Then then all of a sudden we got some people in our pep line that were like, Never mind, forget marketing. I'm back to referral only. And it's just like you got a really bad roller coaster, not just for you, but also for your client base. So like one minute she's there, the next minute she's on.
MICHELLE LYNNE (11:29)
Yes.
Absolutely.
And right now, one of the things so I I I've worn a few hats in my lifetime. Prior to getting into design, I was ⁓ an area director for a recruiting firm. I used to place accounting and financial professionals on projects. But my main like as area director, basically I'm a sales manager. Okay. So that was way back in the day. You had to touch.
Your prospect, not literally, just for the record, not literally. I wasn't going out and touching people, but you they had to hear from you. Yeah, that would be a whole different yeah. Anyway, that's another podcast. But they had to hear from you six or seven times before they would consider buying. Now it's like people have to hear from you twice that amount from multiple channels. And the reason why is not because they trust us any less.
Katie Decker-Erickson (12:13)
That's another podcast too.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (12:34)
Although I there is an argument for that, but it's because we are all so inundated with information that it's hard to sort through it. So the consistency aspect, you know, we use sidemark. I we pre-plan our blog, we pre-plan our social media. So it's not like you have to get creative on a Tuesday for your Tuesday afternoon post. Like you think about it, you can create it, and heck, these days with Chat GPT.
Katie Decker-Erickson (12:36)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. Maybe I
Yeah, we have two.
Yeah. ⁓
MICHELLE LYNNE (13:01)
Chatty G can help you framework your post. Don't let her write it for y'all because people can tell. But she she helps us frame it out. We put it into my voice, and then that's what we post. And it's consistent. We can get the whole month done of posts from that one blog. Well, actually, it's not the whole month, but we can pre-plan all of them, and then we're pre-planning everything in between. Sidemark does pins too. Did you know Sidemark does pins?
Katie Decker-Erickson (13:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Which is amazing.
I love that. I absolutely love that. Yeah, or go find Claude. I'm I'm on a like love hate relationship with chat right now because of their paper tokens when you're already a member and ⁓ I don't know. I'm not loving chat right now.
MICHELLE LYNNE (13:28)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
I have any tokens
for chatty and I'm paid. Interesting. Claude, on the other hand, sometimes she'll tell me, sorry, I'm taking a time out.
Katie Decker-Erickson (13:41)
Yeah. It started.
Well, don't you wish we all could do that? I mean, my God. Are you supposed to be the robot that doesn't need sick days or vacation days? Like, come on now. Just saying. But I think this is interesting too, because yes, you bring up a really good point. It has to be in your voice. It has to be sincere. But it also the value of building your own email marketing list. And it kills me how many designers I coach don't have this. They're like, Well, I'm on Instagram. And I'm like,
MICHELLE LYNNE (13:52)
I was telephone.
Katie Decker-Erickson (14:14)
Great. Keep doing it.
MICHELLE LYNNE (14:14)
You don't you don't know them.
Yeah, if Mark Zuckerberg burps and decides he wants to take Meta down, we're hosed.
Katie Decker-Erickson (14:22)
hundred percent. Like you don't get access to their email addresses. You don't have their content. So the more data capture you can do off your website, which is one of the things I love. Like, I mean, this is why Sidemark is Sidemark, right? That's why we built Sidemark because we wanted a company, the dead IT, that was by designers for designers. And like that data should be getting captured when people and pot prospective clients come to your site. Because then you own that data and no one can take that from you.
And then your newsletter, it goes directly to the Randbox. And instead of like a little one off poll on Instagram that likely doesn't convert. Now it does get you those exposure points like you're talking about, Michelle, which I think are really important. But like as far as like being a subject matter expert where I'm gonna take my like three million, ten million, twenty million dollar home and be like, here, can you make it beautiful? How much more? Say it again.
MICHELLE LYNNE (14:56)
Mm-hmm.
Based on your Instagram?
Based on your Instagram posts, I want to hire you. Yeah.
Katie Decker-Erickson (15:16)
Right? I'm
like, it's so much more painful when it shows up in your inbox and like you have a better expertise on that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (15:21)
But that's also
absolutely because you can prove to them that you are a trusted authority. But that, Katie, it you can't do just email marketing. How are you gonna get people to your website? You can't do just social media. Like this is a this is compounding. And let's go back to search ⁓ SEO. Like when I f when I built my first website and yes, I did, I built it on GoDaddy. I know. Yeah, I was
Katie Decker-Erickson (15:31)
No. They don't have to. ⁓
I love it. Way back in
the day. I love it.
MICHELLE LYNNE (15:47)
way back in the day. And then I didn't know what SEO was. I thought it just
happened. So being aware of the fact that you can do those little nuances of just say, let's just talk about naming your photographs that you upload into your portfolio. So instead of one, two, three dot JPEG, it should be, you know, beautiful purple velvet or purple velvet Chesterfield. So that becomes
Katie Decker-Erickson (15:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (16:14)
Searchable. I had no idea
about that. Or the alt text. This is, you know, living room with purple velvet Chesterfield. So if somebody wants to find a purple velvet Chesterfield, you're likely going to come up in their search if you stack it enough.
Katie Decker-Erickson (16:29)
No, I think it's so in ⁓ little things like that. If you don't wanna do them, then go hire a company like Sidemark to do it for you. Totally great. But like those things all matter. I mean, to your point, it really is about building out the entire burger. You can't just start with the bun and the fluff, which is kind of what I look at Instagram as. You gotta have it, 'cause nobody really likes a carfree burger unless you're crazy. Right. But got to have the meat too, which is like I feel like your email marketing content.
MICHELLE LYNNE (16:35)
Mm-hmm. Amen.
Yeah.
Unless you're vegetarian.
Katie Decker-Erickson (16:58)
Like
MICHELLE LYNNE (16:58)
Yes.
Katie Decker-Erickson (16:58)
it it's beefier, literally, right? Like it establishes you. But you gotta have a little bit of like the fun and acidity in there too, of like a good mustard. Like throw some Facebook in there for some fun, get some SEO. Maybe there's like the hidden Worcestershire in your bun, and you're like, What is that, Katie? Yeah, that's your SEO. Nobody sees it, but you're like, This is really nice, right? Like it all works together. Yeah, we're gonna go to lunch after this, Michelle.
MICHELLE LYNNE (17:00)
Mm. Yeah.
You're making me hungry.
But you're right. Having that Worcestershire in the burger makes all the difference and nobody knows it's in there because it's working behind the scenes.
Katie Decker-Erickson (17:34)
Which is really what your marketing should be doing, back to feed the beast. Like it should be something that is a churn. You do have to feed the beast. It's not revolutionary. It's not rock and science. It has to be consistent. It should be there in the background. But like my one of my other biggest pet peeves next to we're a referral only based business is we're running low on money, so I'm gonna cut marketing first. And I'm just always like, you can't but
MICHELLE LYNNE (17:59)
Awkwards.
Katie Decker-Erickson (18:00)
But do you like oxygen? When the plane is at thirty seven thousand feet, the first thing you do is put on your own oxygen mask. Your business should be running the exact same way. And instead it's like you take it off 'cause you're like, well, I don't know, it's costing money. I'm like
MICHELLE LYNNE (18:15)
That's a that's a huge pain point. I've made that mistake when I was younger as well. And it's when you sit down and think about it, or like you just saying it out loud, it's like, yeah, duh. Or or I can do it myself. So I'm I go back and forth as to like how much of this do I do, how much of it do I outsource? Because I've outsourced it a few times and it just never had my essence.
Katie Decker-Erickson (18:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
I love yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (18:43)
I do
it myself and I just think, you know, that's kind of below my pay grade. So finding that in between. So right now Hallie's doing mine for me. and she knows me well enough and she's so entrenched in all of my businesses, it makes sense. But eventually she's not gonna have the bandwidth because we're putting her all over the place these days. Yes.
Katie Decker-Erickson (19:02)
We like house. We really
do. You know, we should talk ads while we're having this conversation because that comes up. Do I get paid ads? Mmm, tell me more.
MICHELLE LYNNE (19:08)
You know, we just started running ads again.
So for ML Interiors Group, ⁓ I'm re I don't want to say rebuilding it, but for a few years it did not get much of my attention. I've kind of refreshed and regenerated and ⁓ putting more attention to it, looking to grow it again. And yeah, we we're we're running meta ads. And I ran them, so this is all through Sidemark. And so when Sidemark, when we first started ⁓ offering paid ads.
Katie Decker-Erickson (19:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (19:38)
was like let me be the guinea pig and we ran them and I got some business right but you know you kind of have to eat your own dog food so let's see how this works and then we've tweaked it and we've learned and they there's this new thing that you can search by intent and things along that line. And so ⁓ I've signed back up and we're holy crap. I I've got a I've got a meet and greet tomorrow for a whole house furnishing. I did one on Thursday.
Katie Decker-Erickson (19:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Thank you.
MICHELLE LYNNE (20:04)
⁓ they are just starting to look for it's like a four million dollar new custom home. So like the clients that are being attracted through ads, I mean it one project will pay for my ad budget and the service fee associated with it. It's a no brainer. It's a no brainer.
Katie Decker-Erickson (20:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You want to talk about ROI. We're good for the rest of the year. Thank you very much.
MICHELLE LYNNE (20:27)
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So will I run it all the time? ⁓ I might. You know, just so that we can be picky and choosy. Like I love to be able to say, sorry, that project's not big enough for us. Right.
Katie Decker-Erickson (20:32)
Yeah. ⁓
yeah.
Or or just saying, I don't like that client. Like, I just don't, whatever it is. Like, like that. Yeah. They reached out on email. It was two weeks ago. They're kind of pushy, like, hey, we want to get on your calendar. My portfolio is growing. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, great. Here's where to go to book. Well, for some reason the link isn't working, and I really just want to meet with you today.
MICHELLE LYNNE (20:47)
There's something about that just doesn't feel like mm-hmm.
Yeah,
because I'm not doing anything else. Huh.
Katie Decker-Erickson (21:09)
Right. And so I'm
like, no. And I'm like, okay, well, try. Instead of I had a hyperlink in the email, so I gave them the direct URL. It could be copied and pasted. I was like, try this instead. This is my availability, healthy boundaries. Like, we're all in business here. We're not saving lives, thank God. And like, they're like, I just don't understand why I just can't meet with you today. And I'm like, y'all, I've had a day. So literally I responded back, I'm like,
You know, if we're having difficulty booking through our calendar, you're probably not gonna be a good fit for us as a client, but we wish you all the best.
MICHELLE LYNNE (21:42)
There you go. That's
such a good feeling.
Katie Decker-Erickson (21:44)
Such a good feeling. I was like, you're a dumpster fire and no, I am not ready to get in my little Leotard and climb in. Like, no, that's not gonna happen today. Back twenty years ago that would have happened. And now I'm like, no, see, I'm gonna go pour a glass of wine and I'm just gonna walk away slowly.
MICHELLE LYNNE (21:52)
Yeah.
But that and and so for the listeners, I think it's just so important that everybody has like different goals and different intents, but we all have bound well, we all should have boundaries. And by having enough business in the pipeline, it allows you to hold those boundaries so much easier than I mean, Katie, I you've heard me talk about this. It reminds me of when I was dating, right? Here I am, I'm lonely.
Katie Decker-Erickson (22:18)
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (22:28)
Everybody's getting married, popping kids out, and here's Michelle, like 30 something years old, going way, wh and I dated the wrong guys because it they were because I was lonely, right? And and I didn't have the same level of qualifications that I would have if I I don't know, had had some boundaries. Like for the record, I was not sleeping with them all. Okay, just for the record.
Katie Decker-Erickson (22:42)
Sure.
Welcome to ask.
Thank you for volunteering.
MICHELLE LYNNE (22:53)
We'll see if that gets edited. But ⁓ but in that respect, think about it. It's the same thing.
Katie Decker-Erickson (22:56)
my gosh, I'm cracking up right now. No, but I think
It is. It's the exact same thing. And running your business I also think is a lot like marriage and that you change over time. The your partner changes over time. How you choose to dance with each other changes over time. Like be open to that. And the business that you maybe envisioned starting way back in the day has really changed now. I mean, I think of a sweet woman I met when we lived in Oklahoma, Amy, and she had two little girls and her husband said to her,
MICHELLE LYNNE (23:18)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Decker-Erickson (23:28)
I really want to try for a boy. And she's like, okay, okay, okay. Long story short, Amy got pregnant with identical triplet boys. It's an anomaly. It's not not it it happened all naturally, because you can't do identicals, right? Via IBF or anything. I mean, like literally.
MICHELLE LYNNE (23:36)
Mm.
my god.
Katie Decker-Erickson (23:45)
She literally, which is astounding to me, her doctor's like, please go buy a lottery ticket, Amy, because it's like one in a trillion odds that you're getting identical triplet voice. So she went from two kids to five. Not the life she envisioned. It was a hard reset. There are just things that happen in life that like maybe what you started out thinking you were gonna build has changed. And really your marketing strategy and your sales strategy should be adapting to that. Again, it's like scaffolding out of.
MICHELLE LYNNE (23:56)
my gosh.
Yeah.
Katie Decker-Erickson (24:13)
where you want to be and saying, Okay, I need to turn on the drip a little bit or in your case, like I'm really ramping up business. I want to turn on the drip a lot. Like, where do you want to be? And then build your strategy accordingly so that you can make payroll, like you said.
MICHELLE LYNNE (24:28)
Yeah, little details
like paying ourselves. was it Ken? what book was it? I'm looking over my shoulder. ⁓ there's a book that I remember reading way back in the day, and it's begin with the end in mind. So but where I got hung up, Katie, and I think that this is possibly not universal, but a lot of people can relate to it, is that I was like beginning with the end in mind, like what's 20 years from now? Okay, well.
Katie Decker-Erickson (24:33)
See it again.
Totally.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (24:51)
Let's let's let's dial that back in. Let's have a one, three, and five year plan. And then from there you can do your mapping and your scaffolding to your to your ⁓ vernacular. And you can adjust.
Katie Decker-Erickson (24:55)
Yeah.
Well and building it
like for your say it again.
MICHELLE LYNNE (25:06)
Then you can adjust.
Katie Decker-Erickson (25:07)
Yes. That's why you did it in the first place, right? So you could adjust. And weave your personal life into that. If you know in three years you want to have a baby, crush it for three years and then go try having a baby. Like I think right. True story. Right? Like, but weave it into your life. Don't just make it like
MICHELLE LYNNE (25:18)
Or three. Or triplets.
Katie Decker-Erickson (25:25)
successful to the outside world when I hit this metric at year two and at year three and at year four and I have year over year growth that marks this X like it's so much more complicated than that and I think that's why like I don't know I love one-on-one coaching because it is so unique to where you're at once you're not a baby designer anymore once you're growing and you're like okay I have some pretty basics like the basics are down it's like what are we doing out here again?
Why are we doing it? Where do we want to be? And then how do we build our life around that?
MICHELLE LYNNE (25:58)
Well, that and I think that there are some designers that I've had the pleasure of coaching that just got so busy and were making money, but a lot of it was just by the grace of God and and then had to circle back and start putting those processes into place. I'm working with one girl right now, sh she and her team are freaking fabulous.
Katie Decker-Erickson (26:00)
Yeah, I'll beat this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You love it.
MICHELLE LYNNE (26:22)
And they have been so busy that they finally got a break in their schedule. And now they're going back and taking a look at their sales and marketing, their pricing, their processes. So as they have become more successful, their clients have become more successful, their business becomes more successful. Like you have to, it's like a stair staircase. And you can't go from the first floor to the third floor.
Katie Decker-Erickson (26:43)
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (26:47)
you know, in the beat of a heart, you have to you have to you have to put the first floor at before the second floor, before the third floor and continue your growth on what you've learned before.
Katie Decker-Erickson (26:58)
A hundred percent. I also think you give a really good analogy that sometimes you have to build a airplane while you're flying it. Whenever you say that, it scares the shit out of me. And then I'm like, okay, she's right. She's totally right. Sorry if you have kids in the car for the summer. But because it is, it's like sometimes it's like, like in an ideal world there would be like this downtime and I would spend like a week long retreat refreshing my templates and making my and like sometimes it's just like, okay, I got a glass of wine.
MICHELLE LYNNE (26:59)
Right.
Yeah.
Katie Decker-Erickson (27:22)
The kids are watching a show and I have one hour to get through this. Let's go. Right. And that's what we too. Yeah. It's not always like sometimes I think too. We idealize, like, if I could do, if I had this perfect amount of time, I would do. And sometimes I'm like, no, we sometimes, even my company, I mean, on the my firm side, there's times we're building the airplane while we're flying it. And I'm like, no, hold on. Just a sec. Where are we doing that now? Like, what are we doing out here? You know, or someone on the team will be like,
MICHELLE LYNNE (27:26)
Yeah, yeah. Done is better than perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Decker-Erickson (27:50)
Are we? And I'm like, no, we're not. We shouldn't be doing that. No, we need a new system and process for that, folks. You know? But that takes courage too to create a culture where that's acceptable. And also the self-if you're in this as a solopreneur or you just have a small staff, you know, it takes a lot of self-motivation and honesty and reflection to be able to be like, nope, we're gonna do it different. Like we're not gonna be proud to be a referral-only based business anymore. Like I admire that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (27:52)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Well,
Katie Decker-Erickson (28:19)
That's gutsy.
MICHELLE LYNNE (28:20)
that is gutsy, but I also want to give permission to anybody who's listening to know that it's not going to turn on a dime. Like you can build the processes while you're still working those referrals. And part of it also is like this what is your sales process? Like, do you have a standard operating procedure for sales? And I think that oftentimes it like ha having been in the sales
Katie Decker-Erickson (28:26)
No. ⁓
And then
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (28:44)
capacity prior to coming into this, I look at it from that perspective versus just but I didn't always. I just oftentimes I just went off of instinct thinking that this was the way I was supposed to do it and fell flat on my booty. So I sat back and revised and created that sales process. So in that regard, don't feel like you have to have it all figured out. But that makes sense. It made sense in my head.
Katie Decker-Erickson (29:06)
I think that's
Yeah, I mean it's completes. I think this I actually was reflecting on that 'cause I think it's such a beautiful point of like ⁓ the definition, like you look at like Baldridge Principles of Business, like the definition of a good business is agility. And agility is it's great. It's like the the the way businesses should be running at their very soul, right? And one
MICHELLE LYNNE (29:21)
I have no idea what Baldridge principles is.
Says our MBA,
our resident MBA.
Katie Decker-Erickson (29:33)
Just gonna geek out of here. You can DM me all your complaints about the geekiness over here. I'm here to hear it. But the reason why they matter is because the old drew, right? Like your business should be agile enough to allow you to be able to make those twists and take those turns and say, I want to do this differently, or this isn't working, or build a better process. Or I think sometimes we think like if I had the perfect process, it would never need to be adjusted. I'm like, that's a lie. A good
You first of all, there is no perfect process, right? There's there could be really good processes, yeah. But like you're gonna change it over time, right? Like in some way it's going to morph as your client base morphs, maybe, as you morph, as the I don't know. I just still come back to maybe this is again, say to comfortably in middle age, but like I always come back to 80 20. Like 80% of it should be there, but then 20% of it should be adaptable for you, for the client. Maybe it that's sand staller, or maybe it's like
MICHELLE LYNNE (30:03)
I don't know, mine's pretty good. ⁓
In tweet.
Yeah. Hundred percent.
Katie Decker-Erickson (30:30)
There has to be that agility.
MICHELLE LYNNE (30:32)
A hundred percent agree with you. And a lot of it I think is because if we're not growing either as or not either, but as an individual and as a company, then we're dying. So there's always room for improvements. I mean, seriously, look around your house. Are there projects that you want to do around your house? It's the same thing with my business. There's projects that I want to get to, but
Katie Decker-Erickson (30:45)
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (30:54)
Am I gonna be able to go out and buy curtains for the 14 windows that I have in this front area of my house? No, I'm gonna have to plan for it. I'm gonna have to save for it. I'm gonna have to, you know, schedule it and all the things. It's the same thing with business. And you know what else? Like I like I can sit here and I look, we've been in this house for two years. Do I want patterned? Do I want sheer? Do I want solid? Like, what do I really want? and I also want some blinds underneath them. So I'm gonna have to save a little bit longer for that.
Katie Decker-Erickson (31:01)
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (31:21)
It's the same thing for business. So I think that we get so tied up thinking it's supposed to be something. It's not. You just need to keep growing.
Katie Decker-Erickson (31:23)
That's a really great way to put it.
You keep going toward what you want to grow toward. Whether it's you want to scale bigger, whether you want more autonomy and the ability to go away on vacation, whether you want to sell your business in five years, you want to go back to part time. I mean, I think that's the fun of what we get to do as coaches is like we get to help people figure out what is that goal, and then how do we get there? And it's not just making more money all the time. Like I get so tired of that too. I'm like, okay, yes, you have to make money. Yes, you have to feed people. It's so much more than that. That's the bias.
of a good sales program. That's the by product of good processing.
MICHELLE LYNNE (32:02)
So I just wrote this on my whiteboard. It says luxury is, and this is for me, like this is for me because I'm at the place right now where like I have everything I want. Like I'm very content. Me too. I'm very grateful for it. But then I get frustrated because I'm like, okay, well, what do I what what's my why at this point? It says luxury is time to think, read, wander, and romanticize my life.
Katie Decker-Erickson (32:11)
Yeah.
I love that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (32:26)
I mean, doesn't that sound like a damn good reason to run a tight business so that you have time to think, read, wander, and romanticize your life?
Katie Decker-Erickson (32:26)
Love.
That is beautiful. Because at this life stage, that's what I want to do. I don't want to work harder. I want to work smarter. And I shouldn't have, after 20 years, enough to buttress and allow for that luxurious experience. There should be enough there to read the book. And I'm just thinking of the book I just finished over the weekend that had was on my nightstand, maybe went on two trips with me before I ever got through it. Praise God we got through that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (32:56)
Yeah, what was it?
Okay.
Katie Decker-Erickson (32:59)
it's so
so good. It was I'm gonna grab it because it was that.
Okay. It's called The Other Side of Change, Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans. And I really love it. The woman is incredible, who wrote this and what she's been through in her journey. But she profiles all these different people. It comes highly revered by Brene Brown and Mel Robbins and but she just talks about change in life. The life is filled with change. And so much of it is how you respond.
To that change and what that looks like for you. and figuring out how to embrace it and grow with it, which sounds like kind of cheesy in some ways, but it's not. It can be freaking hard when you didn't choose the change and maybe the change chose you, and now here you are, and you're like, what do I do with that? Or having the courage to make the change that you know you want to make, but maybe you're just not sure how yet. Like you said, defining luxury, right? Like that is a beautiful way to describe life.
Now how do we really do that and have the courage to do that? I don't know. I think that's great. I I love that definition that you came up with. But you I imagine, just a hunt, that didn't come to you overnight and it came to you because you had margin and you had space to be able to think through what does luxury really look like to me at this stage of life.
MICHELLE LYNNE (34:01)
I love that.
Yeah, because I think
that oftentimes we all I mean, I'm guilty of it, I look to my peers. What is she doing? Like, she's got a lake house. ⁓ she's she's jaunting around in South Africa. lala. You know what, Katie, I don't want to travel that much anymore. I love being home. I really do.
Katie Decker-Erickson (34:24)
Sure.
It's hilarious. When you said jaunting
around South Africa, I'm like, isn't a bowl of a problem on that continent right now? Like, I don't want to leave home.
MICHELLE LYNNE (34:45)
Well, I think it was a pretty well guided safari, but yeah. So in that respect, yeah, I got that out of my system when I was younger. It would I I mean, sure, would I like to travel? There are some places that I want to go when my kid gets a little bit older and she can appreciate it. But at the same time, I would much rather, you know, take a road trip in our car. So what does that look like? I
Katie Decker-Erickson (34:48)
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah. You know?
MICHELLE LYNNE (35:07)
I think just being okay with that and not comparing myself to others.
Katie Decker-Erickson (35:10)
I absolutely love that because, you know, in our industry, we get a couple weeks at Christmas. Like our world shuts down and it's quiet and it's peaceful. It's the only time of year when I feel like, okay, I can really, really check out because I'm just still really conscientious. I have a great team. I don't have to. It's a personality disorder, folks, straight up. And so I was saying to my husband, I'm like, okay, are we going back to Hawaii at Christmas? Like this would be so great. And dah dah da. Long story short, you what the kids want? They want to stay at home Christmas.
You know how excited I am about a stay-at-home Christmas? Negative. Zero. Like, no, I don't want to stay home at Christmas. I want to go somewhere warm. I want to go somewhere that's 85 degrees. Why do you sunblock in December? Like, that's what I want to do and where I want to go. And then, you know, it was to your point, which is such a good one. He's just like, Yeah, we could go spend the money and we could do it. It wouldn't be the end of the world. But he's like,
MICHELLE LYNNE (35:41)
Yeah. You're not excited?
He
Ha ha.
Katie Decker-Erickson (36:04)
If the kids just want to stay home, would you rather just like do it later? And I'm like, well, yeah, you're right, but not really now. But I'll get there. So long story short. Yeah, I mean the the point about contentment is so well made because like especially when you have kids and you're in this life stage, and sometimes I feel like you see the people on Instagram who like, yes, in our peer group who are doing amazing products, or they're taking their kids on safari. I'm like, my kids don't even have probably all the rest.
MICHELLE LYNNE (36:11)
Ha ha ha
Katie Decker-Erickson (36:33)
shots to go on, like Safari, right? I'm pretty sure they don't. but yeah, it's such a good reminder too of like what is your happy place and how do you build from that.
MICHELLE LYNNE (36:44)
And it's not by referral only.
Katie Decker-Erickson (36:46)
Not by referral only, not if you want to keep it consistent to use your term, which is so great, and sustainable. If you want consistent and sustainable, if you want to be able to have the luxury of reading the book and having the time and taking the slow walks and just feeling the sun on your face, that that becomes a big reality when you have a consistent machine in the background that's feeding you.
MICHELLE LYNNE (36:50)
Mm-hmm.
Well that and also if something does cut, you know, referring back to your book, if something comes and knocks you out of left field, are you able to s are you able to navigate that? You know, even just financially. Sometimes if you were to get sick, are are you do you have processes in place that your business can run without you? Like details along that line goes past sales and marketing, but circling back to sales and marketing, and I want to talk on about Sidemark because we run our business on Sidemark and
Katie Decker-Erickson (37:25)
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (37:35)
Our our my my sales process is organized and automated in Sidemark. So when people set certain appointments, it automatically triggers different confirmation emails and it has links to what like the questionnaires that's for formed as a survey in Sidemark so that all of that content lives under their under their contact.
So sales and marketing, we do our we do our social media planned all through social market. Social media all through Sidemark. Our blogs. Hallie writes the blogs and everything goes into well, actually she writes the blogs on it. We don't have our website on there because I had my website done before we created Sidemark. But if you're on Sidemark, you can have your website and it can all be tied together. So my point is, is that when
Katie Decker-Erickson (37:59)
I love
Okay.
MICHELLE LYNNE (38:24)
You can streamline it and make it easier. You're not trying to patch. ⁓ and our calendar's on sidemark. So we don't have to patch calendly with social media, like whatever format to mail chimp. And then we can also we get our ⁓ documents signed through it. So it's so consolidated that I don't feel as scattered all over the place too. So just finding what works for you. I mean, if I would have had this 10 years ago.
Katie Decker-Erickson (38:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
MICHELLE LYNNE (38:51)
I I mean holy cow. Batten happy.
Katie Decker-Erickson (38:53)
Think that's such a key point because, like, there's so many softwares that are built for designers. But I'm like, was it really built by a designer? Because we would never do it that way, actually. Or that's not how it really goes when you're in the trenches. And so, yeah, to have everything consolidated one in a single place, and then have a process, it's not like you're reinventing the wheel every month having a heart attack on Tuesday that you need that riveting post. Like it's just structured and ordered. And then what
MICHELLE LYNNE (39:00)
Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Decker-Erickson (39:22)
I think is the greatest benefit and get you back to doing what you love. So if you really love doing the creative part of your business, if you love sourcing, if you love space planning, whatever it is, you're back doing that. Any more projects coming in to do that too, as opposed to just having knee-jerk reactions of, boy, not sure we're gonna make payroll this month. Like that's just a very different conversation.
MICHELLE LYNNE (39:43)
Yeah, and that's a l you know what I spend more money covering the gray in my hair. So No, but Katie, let's ⁓ let's talk about our event in August. I almost forgot about that.
Katie Decker-Erickson (39:52)
I'm like have any more comments? Yes, super excited.
If you've been listening to either Michelle or I's show for the last, I don't know, we've been on each other's ships. We have a lot of fun together. A ton of fun together. I love this girl. The reality is that there's an immense amount of knowledge that she brings to the table that we want to share with you. And so we thought if we enjoy hanging out this much together in a virtual
Format, imagine what we could do if we were in the same room. And then we thought we should invite the people that we really love that faithfully are listening to our show, are coming to us for coaching, and who really want to get to the next level in their business. And so we did it. We booked a day in August in Dallas. Say it again.
MICHELLE LYNNE (40:39)
The contract has been signed. The
contract has been signed.
Katie Decker-Erickson (40:44)
The contract has been signed. We're doing it. It's August 24th. And we want to invite you to come into the room, as we're calling it. It's all about the art of being the principal in your business. And we're not doing this digitally. We're not gonna sell virtual tickets. Like you literally have to have your derriere in the seat because we're just gonna have the live conversation about this. What else are we talking about, Michelle?
MICHELLE LYNNE (41:10)
So we are talking about sales and marketing, operations, and financials, the three pillars. And it's gonna be a lot of you guys probably know me as the coach that I love baby designers, right? This is not for baby designers. This is truly for individuals, I would say 300,000 or up, maybe 150,000 and up if you've got that revenue, because you're gonna be able to afford to take a day off and hell.
Go to Dallas Market Center the next day and walk around and see what you've got going on there. but it's gonna be we've got workbooks, we've got exercises, we've got all sorts of talking points that I really, really encourage you to consider investing in the time and the trip. And it's a badass hotel too, if you're coming from out of town. Mm-hmm.
Katie Decker-Erickson (41:55)
There you go.
Yeah, and you get Michelle and I. I mean, for a full day. And we do a and we do a ri welcome cocktail hour, don't we? Don't we get a cocktail hour in this?
MICHELLE LYNNE (42:03)
Yes,
so the night before we are gonna have a welcome reception as people are checking in. And then the next day we've got all sorts of fun stuff and fun little sussies. But I'm not gonna say more about that.
Katie Decker-Erickson (42:12)
Yeah.
No, they're really good. And I think like the fact that you get both of us in the same room for a full day and we really care about seeing you succeed. So when we were thinking about the content of what do we really drop into this full day, it was really based on the core elements. Like if you don't have one, you're gonna fail. Like as we've discussed today, if you don't have a sales and marketing process, it's not gonna be long. Huh?
MICHELLE LYNNE (42:34)
You're not gonna have any financials.
If you don't have sales and marketing, you're not gonna have any financials.
Katie Decker-Erickson (42:41)
Yeah. And if you don't have a process, you're probably not gonna have consistent sales and marketing. And if you don't know your financials, you can't pay for your consistent sales and marketing. Like there's a synergy between these three concepts. We're gonna unpack them and teach you how to actually do it so that you're not just left looking your bookkeeper at the end of the year and going, I owe how much in taxes? Come again or the end of the quarter. But you're gonna we're gonna teach you to understand so you can draw.
MICHELLE LYNNE (42:46)
Mm-hmm.
girl,
I've done that. The worst thing. Yes. So nonetheless, y'all, I hope you can make it to Dallas. we'll make sure that the link is in the show notes, but if you don't want to wait, you can go to mysidemark.com forward slash room.
Katie Decker-Erickson (43:05)
Right.
Yes, come join us. We would love to love to see you, especially to our faithful little audience. Like you guys are great. We would love to be able to say hi and like look you in the eye.
MICHELLE LYNNE (43:30)
Well, and here's what we say in the South. I just look forward to hugging your neck.
Katie Decker-Erickson (43:33)
Yeah. Hug around the neck.
MICHELLE LYNNE (43:35)
Is there anything else we wanna leave with the audience? We've been
Katie Decker-Erickson (43:37)
No, I think this
is really we're we're just coming back to that idea again. It's the one I always talk to my audience about, but it's really getting your business to work for you rather than you working for it. And this is the how. These are the actionable steps and the how of how to get there.
MICHELLE LYNNE (43:53)
Agreed. All right. Well, honey, it was good to see you again.
Katie Decker-Erickson (43:56)
Yeah.
You too.
